•Speaks on what lawyers body recommended to Obasanjo in 2000 to fix problem•‘Why case for Abuja gov may not succeed’
Says post-election matters ought to be concludedbefore President is sworn-in, but not practicable
Explains: Supreme Court Justices not infallible
ON MINISTER WIKE: I will be surprised if anybody hasguts to expel ex-Rivers gov from PDP
By Daniel Abia
A former President of the Nigerian Bar Association, NBA, Onueze Chukwujinka Joe (OCJ) Okocha, in this interview, speaks on the controversy generated by the Presidential Election Petition Court (PEPC) which ruled that the winner of the February 29 presidential election, President Bola Tinubu, did not have to win 25% of the votes in Abuja, the Federal Capital Territory (FCT), to be so declared by the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC). Okocha also shares his perspectives on other issues in the polity. Excerpts:
What is your opinion about the presidential election petition tribunal judgment which has elicited mixed feelings among Nigerians?
I have no complaints whatsoever about the judgment delivered by the presidential election petition tribunal. I think that the judgment itself, by its length, indicated that the Justices that heard the petitions… indeed there were many petitions as we know: One for Labour Party, another for the PDP and the third for Allied People’s Movement.
The tribunal consolidated several petitions and held them all together and gave judgment accordingly. They seemed to have painstakingly covered all the issues raised by the petitioners and ruled on them very decisively.
The judgment was unanimous. The five Justices all agreed that the petitions lacked merit. The tribunal arrived at a conclusion on the several issues raised by the petitioners. I commend the tribunal for doing a good job.
One of the major arguments by the petitioners, particularly the LP candidate, was anchored on the issue of 25% vote in FCT. The tribunal didn’t recognize the constitutional status of the federal territory, why?
I have said before that sometimes the word ‘AND’ is interpreted disjunctively, not conjunctively. I also hold the view, as do other senior lawyers, that Abuja, the Federal Capital Territory, cannot have a special status that will make it have what they say, a deciding vote based on the requirement that a candidate must score at least 25% of the vote cast in at least two thirds of the states of Nigeria and the FCT. First, as we know, the FCT is not a state but it is regarded as a state because it has its own High Court, it has its own Customary Court of Appeal, it has its own budget which is usually passed by the National Assembly.
For the purposes of elections, it is also regarded as a particular area which should have the winning candidate scores at least 25% of vote cast in that particular territory. Now, two thirds of the states of Nigeria and the FCT are certainly more than 26 states.
The presidential candidate who was declared the winner by INEC, and who is the current President, Bola Ahmed Tinubu, won over two thirds of the votes cast in 29 states. People do not have to expect that he should have also won 25% of the votes cast in the FCT.
It is not necessary because Abuja, while not a state cannot have a higher status than any state. It is like, score two thirds there and two-thirds in other states. If you don’t score 25% in Abuja and you score more than two thirds in the states of the federation, you have successfully won the election.
Most of our Nigerian people are not too well-versed in law. Most of them act on the sentiment of the moment. I was telling a very close friend of mine, my age mate, even though he claims to be older than I am that something is not right. The man said Tinubu did not win 25% in Abuja, so he shouldn’t have been declared the winner.
Must he win 25% of the votes in Abuja? My answer was no. Most people forget that less than 30 million Nigerians voted in this election. We claim that we are 200 million plus in Nigeria and that has been the pattern.
Even in America, rarely do you see voters turning out in a sizeable number. Most ordinary citizens are not really interested in politics. You and I, if we really look inward in our heart of hearts, it doesn’t really matter to you, Dan, that A is in Aso Rock and B is in Government House here in Port Harcourt (Brick House).
All we want is good governance, basic amenities that we expect government to provide, security of lives and property, good roads, water, electricity and such infrastructural development, good schools for our children to go through including universities and other higher institutions. Most times Nigerians are really swayed by sentiments. The candidate for the PDP is an old war horse. Atiku Abubakar is recognized all over Nigeria, and everybody knows that he had served as Vice President and has been aspiring to become the President. Somehow, there were some disagreements in PDP on the Chairman of the party. We agreed that power should be rotated in Nigeria. It goes to the North, it goes to the South so that every Nigerian will feel a sense of belonging and some Nigerians will cease to claim that they have a divine right to rule Nigeria. The point is that Nigeria is a federation.
We have this thing they called six zones, though that has not been put into law as I know, but we are operating it. Is good we recognize that our past history, which indicated dominance by certain sections of the country, the majority ethnic groups, led to the breaking up of the country into a 12-state-structure in 1967 and it continued.
From 12 states to 19, then to 21 and now we have 36 states and the FCT. We must all carry everybody alone. This country belongs to all of us.
Can we now say Abuja is a full-fledged state now?
No, no, no. What we have is that Abuja may be seen to have a status of a state because they put it there: 36 states and the FCT. Abuja is also structured like a state. The Constitution establishes 36 states. Abuja is recognized because of the special status it has as FCT.
It has its own High Court, as I said earlier, it has Federal Capital Development Authority; it even has people who are like Commissioners. But it is not a state of the federation of Nigeria. It does not have a governor but there is a minister who has virtually the same power as a governor.
These are things that I have always maintained that our Constitution has some incongruities, some very grey areas and the National Assembly, since 1999, has been tinkering with it. That was the first thing I recommended when I was the President of Nigerian Bar Association between 2000 and 2002.
The first thing (former President Olusegun) Obasanjo should have done was what Mandela did, to sit down and give us a properly made Nigerian Constitution. That Constitution was made by the military government and then handed over to us. Since then, civil society organizations, including NADECO, have been clamoring for a National Conference to fix the issues. Obasanjo set up a National Conference, so did President Jonathan. Still, we are all going round the periphery without hitting the nail on the head to say this is what we want Nigeria be as Nigerians.
Will it be right for the residents of Abuja to approach the court to demand for a governor, 3 senators, House of Reps members and State Assembly in line with other states of the federation, given the declaration by the PEPC that Abuja is not superior or inferior to other states?
They will not be right. But they can try. As you know, Abuja is now a melting pot. Every Nigerian has a foothold in Abuja. Many from different states of the federation are residing there.
There are places I went to called Maraba and Nyanya at the outskirts of Abuja. They are all in Nassarawa State. People there work in Abuja because housing is cheaper there. They have been developing as small towns even before the FCT was established. Now having established the FCT, it is still in the process of development.
They are still sharing plots for all kinds of purposes: Industrial, commercial, residential and so on. Who among those people resident in Abuja will come out and say we want a state status? Original indigenes who used to live in a place that was called Abaji, where the name Abuja emerged from, have been relocated because the Federal Government, through a committee headed by Justice T Akinola Aguda, recommended that the Federal Capital should move from Lagos to this place which is central in Nigeria, with moderate climate and has plenty of room for expansion.
That was why the Federal Government in 1991, after having built some structures, moved to Abuja. It is now our Capital.
I don’t believe that any court will give that order. I know the Constitution can make and unmake. If the Constitution amendment now gives provision that Abuja should be given the status of a state, so be it. In America they have a place they called Washington DC. It is surrounded by Virginia, Maryland and some other neighboring states bordering the territory of Washington DC which is the seat of government in America. It is just the seat of American government.
I think that is what we sought to copy. Abuja is our Capital Territory. It is a land for all of us. Nobody can claim that Abuja is my father’s land. I don’t think they will be justified to go to court to demand that Abuja be given the status of a state.
Do you think this judgment could have gone either way?
It could have. That has been the expectation. But it did not. Some us knew that it will not. Even before the judgment was delivered, I contributed to the debate about whether Abuja is a state and whether whoever is winning the presidential election must score at least 25% in Abuja. We are lawyers and not prophets.
It went the way many of us believed it will go and we are happy about it. It is my hope that it will stabilize the polity.
In the context of this judgment, do you think law guarantees justices in most cases?That is the intention of the law makers. Once you know the law and you abide by the law, you are a free citizen. Justice cannot be divorced from law. It is the law that governs all our lives and affairs in civilized society.
Some Nigerians are of the view that post-election matters should be cleared by the court before swearing in a new President. What is your take on this?
Post-election matters are held by election petition tribunals. Post-election matters have their own peculiar characteristics.
The procedure is not usually the same as we have in the ordinary court even though they still use the Evidence Act and other laws. It may not be practicable to conclude post-election matters before the swearing-in of a new President.
Given the window, the Electoral Act provides that post-election matters must be concluded within 180 days. Unless you amend that section to shorten the period or you now fix the elections very far away from the swearing-in of a new President, it may difficult to achieve that position.
I remember vividly the case of Al Gore and George W. Bush in America where Bush won and Al Gore went to court. The court finished the case even before Bush was sworn in as President. They have a system that justice moves faster because they have gone digital in their proceedings.
Here, some of our courts are still recording in long hand and, when you consider the number of witnesses that are usually lined up during petitions, you discover that it is not possible to conclude the case within the 180 days.
So, from February to May when the President is sworn-in or the governors from March to May to be sworn-in will not allow the time for the petitions to be disposed of. But the law holds the remedy. It may either uphold the election or nullified it.
These are things you may not know until they are decided. It will an ideal situation for post-election matters to be concluded before whoever wins is sworn-in, but it may not be practicable given the circumstances of the current laws in Nigeria.
Given the PEPC judgment, do you think it will amount to a waste of judicial time for the two major petitioners to go to the Supreme Court to test the PEPC judgment?
Let me say this, the right of appeal, is a constitutional right. We as lawyers always advise any party dissatisfied with the judgment of the court or a tribunal to seek an appeal.
As a lawyer, I will not say, with all sense of responsibility, that, if either Peter Obi or Atiku Abubakar proceeds to the Supreme Court to test the judgment of PEPT, it is a waste of time.
The courts are there to develop our jurisprudence. Who knows, speaking my mind as a lawyer, the Supreme Court is the final court and they may have a different opinion.
This is what the law provides. Justice (Chukwudifu) Oputa of blessed memory was the one who said that the Supreme Court is final, not because justices there are infallible. It is final because there is no other court above it.
It is the final arbiter on the matter. First and foremost, those that want to appeal must seek legal advice if you believe you have a good case.
Some people use litigation and appeal as a tool to harass the opponents. An honest lawyer will tell you, “you can appeal this”. As I said, the justices in the Supreme Court are not infallible. They are also humans.
If you were one of Justices on the PEPC, what would you have done with INEC that collected over N300 billion to introduce technology into the elections but ended up not being able to?
Well, I am not a Justice. In my position as a senior counsel, we do not begin to speculate on issues. Speaking as an individual, with all sense of responsibility, I have said before, that from the elections of 1999 to 2007, 2015, 2019 and, now 2023, INEC has always bungled elections.
They claimed they had capacity. They called them card readers, BVAS machines, IREV to transmit results online and in real time; they could not live up to it after making all those promises to Nigerians. INEC has to up its game. You don’t hear these complaints in civilized climes. In some of the places, voters were not able to accredit themselves.
Personally, I tried to accredit myself during the presidential election, but the card reader could not recognize my card. It was discovered three days after the election that they had two sets of card readers.
One machine had names in it from A to N and the other had O to Z. They brought out the one that had A to N and the other one was in their bag.
Just as I was disenfranchised in the presidential election, so must so many people have been disenfranchised too. INEC has not done well at all. You told us you will transmit result online and in real time, why did you not do that? You are now blaming system failure. INEC should stop bungling our elections and giving us cause for undue concerns.
Should the anti-graft agencies investigate INEC for wasting the tax payers’ money on equipment paid for but not used?
Corruption is a very serious word to use. There could be honest mistakes. Equipment failure, as they claimed.
Your system could be on now and the PHED (Distribution Company) will just interrupt electricity.
We have to live with our reality in Nigeria that too many things are wrong with technical appliances.
Look at power. Nigeria has not been able to provide the citizens with uninterrupted power supply for some time, same with the internet system. These things are prone to failures.
I am sure that you are still a member of PDP?
Yes, I am. Indeed, I am a member of the Rivers State Elders Council of the PDP and a card carrying member of the party. I have been a member of the PDP since 1999. Then Sir Dr. Peter Odili was the Governor of Rivers State.
With former Governor Nyesom Wike now working in the APC cabinet as a minister, is it true to say that the PDP, a supposed major opposition party in the country, is now on life-support and about to die?
Let me say this, Nyesom Wike has repeatedly stated that he is still a member of the People’s Democratic Party. I have to say this too, President Bola Ahmed Tinubu, the Jagaban, as they call him, is perfectly entitled to appoint anybody, any qualified Nigerian to be a minister in his cabinet.
The government is not the government of APC. President Tinubu is not a President of APC. The Vice President is not the Vice President of APC.
The ministers are not the ministers of APC. They are all ministers of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. So the President is the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria and the Vice President is the Vice President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.Political parties are just vehicles used to contest the elections.
I am aware that many have clamoured for us to have independent candidates for our elections in Nigeria and the National Assembly at some point made some efforts to introduce bills before the National Assembly seeking to include independent candidates in the Electoral Acts and the Constitution.
Nyesom Wike serving in the government of President Bola Ahmed Tinubu ought not to be seen as a member of the APC government because the government is not an APC government. It is the government of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.
Governor Wike is facing a threat of being expelled from the PDP. What constitutes anti-party activity in your party?
Listen, you must look at the reality of our situation in the PDP. I am aware that PDP governors met and all agreed formally that party offices and presidential candidate and other elective offices will be operated on a system of zoning.
They said this time around, the office of the President should be zoned to the South because it has been held by the north for some time. It also happened in the APC.
I heard the northern governors in their bloc led by El-Rufai and others said “yes, the presidential candidate should come from the South”.
This was also agreed in PDP too. That was the impetus that Governor Wike then threw his hat into the ring to run for the office of President. The PDP governors looked among themselves and said they felt that the person best suited to run for the office of the President was Governor Nyesom Wike only to see what played out at the National Convention.
Atiku, not a southerner, came out and ran. One of the governors, Aminu Waziri Tambuwal, my learned friend, made the first speech and came back again to say he had withdrawn his candidature and asked his supporters to vote Atiku. That, on its own, was sufficient to have him thrown out of the party because he was trying to destabilize the democratic process in the party.
Now they look at Wike that he has accepted appointment as a minister under President Tinubu and said he has committed anti-party. You can’t have Chairman of the party and presidential candidate all from the North. What about the rest of us who are not from the North! I will be surprised if anybody will have the guts to expel Wike from PDP. Wike is one of the pillars in the PDP.
For the last six years when they held the Convention that produced Atiku as presidential candidate of the party and Uche Secondus as Chairman of the party, everybody knows what Wike contributed to the party.
A man who won virtually all the seats in the Senate, Reps and the State Assembly members for the PDP, Wike is an asset.
Whosoever wants to expel him will be doing a great disservice to the party. Just as they can throw out Wike, people can also throw out PDP and render it ineffective as a party. I don’t take that rumor seriously.
Wike has said he is in PDP. Nothing has changed.
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